Alice Liu: Welcome Ming - thank you for joining us today.
Ming Guo: Thank you, Alice. I'm happy to be here.
AL: To start off, could you give us a bit of your background? You initially worked in the aerospace industry, then software engineering, and even designed graphics chips. How did all of that lead you into the blockchain and Web3 industry?
MG: Sure, I have a very engineering-heavy background. I began in aerospace, doing research on re-entry objects, and used to joke that I was a rocket scientist. Then I moved into computer graphics, which might seem unrelated, but both fields shared a lot of core mathematics and engineering principles. Later, I worked at a company developing the MIPS architecture—a reduced instruction set computing (RISC) system, which was influential in the computer chip industry.
From there, I got involved in blockchain around 2017. The shift was partly due to my fascination with decentralized systems and how blockchain could fundamentally change the way we look at transactions and digital ownership. I worked on several projects and eventually co-founded Metis, and now, here I am at ZKM.
AL: That's a fascinating journey, from aerospace to cryptography and blockchain. So, let's dive into DAC Economy - what inspired the vision behind it, and how does it differ from the current economic models we see today?
MG: The idea of DAC Economy came to me when I first entered the crypto space around 2017. Back then, Bitcoin was the most prominent project, and it wasn't just a new technology; it had profound implications for the economy and society. People from early grassroots internet communities, like the Cypherpunks, were very focused on privacy, individual rights, and sovereignty.
Initially, Bitcoin embodied this libertarian ethos, but it soon attracted a lot of speculative behavior. I remember a paper that highlighted how Bitcoin's value seemed tied to congestion in the network - the more congested, the more miners profited. This rent-seeking behavior made it clear that Bitcoin wasn't truly breaking away from traditional economic dynamics.
DAC Economy - initially called the Self-Sustainable Digital Economy (SSDE) - was born from a need to address these shortcomings. It envisioned an economic system that values community, individual sovereignty, and long-term sustainability, rather than speculative gains. In our current ZKM projects, the technologies we're developing, like zero-knowledge proofs, are aimed at enhancing the core principles of DAC Economy, making this vision a reality.
AL: I see. So, Bitcoin hasn’t managed to achieve that state of self-sustainability - what, in your view, is needed for blockchains to achieve a true DAC economy?
MG: Good question. Bitcoin was imagined as digital cash, but its scarcity - a limited supply of 21 million - has made it more like digital gold. People tend to hoard it rather than use it for day-to-day transactions. The value of a currency must grow with the economy; otherwise, it incentivizes hoarding. This is the limitation with Bitcoin.
Instead of a static currency, the DAC Economy needs a system that can adapt dynamically to changes in the economic landscape - a currency system that evolves as the economy itself grows and changes. The ultimate goal is for money, as a concept, to fade into the background, allowing value exchange through smart contracts that are seamless, automated, and always aligned with the real value being created in society.
This means we need to advance our smart contract capabilities to not only handle complex computations but also to ensure that they represent true value in a decentralized way - without being subjected to the rent-seeking and control mechanisms we see in traditional financial systems.
AL: That's really insightful. In your white paper, you mentioned that our current token models and currencies are still playing a zero-sum game. What would real value look like in a true DAC economy, if not driven by monetary incentives?
MG: The foundation of DAC Economy is moving away from purely resource-bound and monetary-driven incentives. In the beginning, human society was driven by subsistence - survival, finding food, etc. Then, as we advanced, surplus production became the norm, and with that, came economic transactions. But this has always left certain kinds of value unaccounted for.
Take, for instance, domestic work or creative endeavors - these are valuable activities, yet they aren't adequately recognized in our current economic systems. Or consider the open-source contributors who create software used worldwide without a direct monetary incentive. The value is undeniable, but it's not always accounted for in the traditional economy.
In a DAC Economy, these forms of value need to be measured and represented. Instead of a zero-sum currency model, it's about recognizing the diverse forms of value individuals create and ensuring they are compensated fairly, beyond the constraints of resource-bound currencies. Smart contracts, tokenized interactions, and new systems of reputation and contribution can help achieve this.
AL: That's a crucial point - recognizing the unaccounted forms of value. One major theme in your white paper was also individual-centricity - placing boundaries around individuals instead of institutions. What does it mean for an economy to be individual-centric?
MG: To build a truly individual-centric economy, we must protect and value what individuals create. Historically, centralized systems have omitted or exploited individual value whenever possible. By focusing on individual sovereignty - making sure the boundaries around individuals are respected and valued - we can better incorporate their contributions into the economy.
Current systems argue for centralization in the name of efficiency, but we are now at a point where decentralized systems can be equally efficient while offering far more equitable value distribution. This means reducing the need for identity-based access control and focusing more on privacy as the boundary for each individual - allowing people to control and monetize the value they generate.
In DAC Economy, ownership and value creation are embedded in individuals, not corporations or centralized entities. Smart contracts can be used to facilitate these interactions, and zero-knowledge proofs can ensure privacy and security, allowing individuals to transact without ceding control over their data or value.
AL: That makes a lot of sense. It really shifts the focus to individual empowerment. Before we close, what advice would you give to those building in the space today - any particular mindsets or approaches they should embrace?
MG: I think the key is to rethink a lot of the concepts that are rooted in centralized, resource-bound economies. For example, we need to challenge our conventional understanding of identity, privacy, and ownership - particularly how these relate to value creation. Blockchain technology has already shown us that many seemingly insurmountable problems can be addressed by rethinking the approach and incorporating higher-dimensional solutions.
We have an opportunity to build a new economic framework from the ground up, and this means building every piece right. The new generation of developers and innovators needs to think about how they can create value in a way that respects and empowers the individual, rather than building systems that mirror the exploitative aspects of the old economy. It’s about making the smart, forward-thinking choice now, and ensuring the systems we build empower people, rather than diminish them.
AL: Thank you, Ming. This has been an enlightening conversation - from the principles behind DAC Economy to the practical steps we need to achieve this vision. Thanks again for joining us.
MG: Thank you, Alice. It was great sharing these ideas.
